Meine VBL ist das Kundenportal für Arbeitgeber, Versicherte und Rentner und bietet viele exklusive Online-Services. Vertragsdaten auf einen Blick Mit Ihrem. Video: Meine VBL. Das Kundenportal. VBL. Versorgungsanstalt des Bundes und der Länder. Deutschlands größte Zusatzversorgungskasse. More security · Your benefits · VBLextra · More future. FindyourPension. Verständliche Informationen über die Altersversorgung werden immer wichtiger. Wer kennt nicht die individuelle Renteninformation über die. 1 Your choice of pension scheme within the VBL supplementary pension system. You have signed a temporary employment contract as a scientific employee with.
Furthermore, your pension payments are indexed (enhanced) every year. The VBL provides insured employees with advice on every aspect of retirement. Meine VBL ist das Kundenportal für Arbeitgeber, Versicherte und Rentner und bietet viele exklusive Online-Services. Vertragsdaten auf einen Blick Mit Ihrem. 3 What your choice for VBLextra means. 4 Decision-making aid for employees in the western Länder of Germany. 5 Changes in your employment contract.
Some were positive models for VBL, others were not. When I worked in an organization where my values were aligned with theirs, I was more passionate, joyful and effective.
When working in environments that did not align with my core values, I experienced less joy, less connection, less engagement.
This was an organization with values aligned with mine, one that was moving from a good culture to a great one.
I quickly connected with the people and mission of Luck, enthusiastic to have landed in such an incredible organization.
I was looking for a job that I could put my heart into without it spilling over too much into my nonwork life.
My supervisors saw potential in me that I had never considered. Because of my background in education, my people skills, my communication abilities, and my love for the values, I was encouraged to take on new responsibilities outside of my job description.
I was motivated by those around me and began to step out of the comfortable and known into the adventure of VBL.
It led me to ask for more responsibilities and cultivated in me a greater desire to give back to the organization. My experiences influenced me to obtain my coaching certificate from N.
State University — something I had never considered before. This opened the door to another area of development and passion for me, a Leadership and Executive Coaching practice.
By identifying my core values, and working with a company that takes time to nurture, train and showcase these passions of mine, I truly feel where I am working aligns with what is important to me.
VBL is about how you live your life. It impacts communication, friendships, families and every relationship you have. If you find yourself looking for more fulfillment in your life, I encourage you to start this journey with an honest assessment to increase your self-awareness check out our Igniter App.
Begin with a willingness to work on yourself. Remember, everything starts with one small step in the right direction. Andrew, do you see yourself possibly doing some things differently in retrospect on some trips and in some situations had you greater employed hydrophobic down in a sleep system?
In non-extreme circumstances, hydrophobic down may buy you more time, i. Maybe more on par with synthetic insulations? The exact effect will depend on the down and the conditions.
In conditions where I would consider a VBL, drying is usually not an option. Thanks for the excellent article. As a geezer, nearing 70, my hands and feet are sometimes cold whilst snowshoeing here in Northern Ontario and Quebec.
There is no question about it, using a vapour barrier is great and keeps the feet warm and insulation dry.
This is only after 7 hours of show-shoeing. Have you ever suffered from a similar situation? Any thoughts. The outside of a wool shirt-jacket may be white with frost, but it is drying.
When I was a kid, everyone hung their wash out in winter here. Sure it would come in frozen but it would have much less water content because of sublimation.
Is it from friction or moisture? Good point about the sublimination. You are better off preventing things from getting wet.
Andrew Skurka has a good summary of their use here. However, an independently unfortunate property of cotton is that it loses all insulation when wet.
I was interested in trying to incorporate your idea of a VBL to help extend my gear and reduce my overall pack weight.
Many of them come with front zips and some even come with side leg zips. Thank you in advance.
Aside from the noise issue, at least initially it seems like a good idea. Though I wonder if the fact that it reflects body heat will make me sweatier.
Terrible idea. Very poor durability. And as you suspected, it will trap all your perspiration due to it being non-breathable.
I actually think MB1 was on to something, assuming some means on the sides he later mentioned event to allow compression, or the use of VB clothing or liner.
Because there will be little or no vapor or sweat coming from the body that needs to get to the exterior.
As it will be stopped by the VB, or almost all of it. I have been amazed at the wide conditions I have managed to use these in, especially since I lack pit zips and such for venting.
Just remove layers quickly! Or sometimes VB clothes. Though the SB is not a perfect VB since it might allow some moisture to drip down the side of the hammock, as it simply lays on top of the pad under the hammock, it has done a fine job of keeping the OCF pad and any added insulation bone dry from the inside.
Net result: dry and warm due to a VB outer and inner layer. Worst case scenario, on the coldest nights, has been a few drops of water at the low point of the space blanket, which might have been sweat.
But the insulation has been dry. Unless I have done away with the space blanket, which at least once resulted in the foot of the HH under pad and my bag being soaked with condensation.
Naturally enough, since the outer layer was a cold VB, and body vapor loves to condense against a cold, WP surface. But I can also see how that might be a big assumption.
There was also mention by Kate of sewing 2 space blankets together to make a sleeping bag VB liner.
Andrew felt it would not be a good idea due to lack of durability and because it would cause sweat and trap all moisture due to not being breathable.
OK, I see that it would be fragile. But I thought the entire idea was to be non-breathable and trap any moisture that might occur vapor or liquid sweat in order to keep it out of the insulation?
I think as far as a VB function, it would work just fine. They last for years in my HHSS, but probably would not last long as a bag liner, as pointed out.
Thanks for reading! My experiences camping, Dec. And my sleeping bag stayed dry and light. Nice write up.
I go out in nice, cold weather, down to twenty belowish F, for fatbike rides. As long as I reach my destination or the end of my workout without incident, all is well, but I worry about crashing or having mechanical difficulties.
Your situation reminds me of my winter runs, where my output level is beyond the threshold for not sweating.
My solution is to carry multiple sets of clothing e. I was curious to hear your thoughts about VBL suit that the racing industry uses.
Andrew, thanks for the in-depth explanation of the VBL technique. I winter camp in northern Minnesota, so the temps definitely warrant a lot of thought on gear, clothing, and techniques of keeping warm.
Do you get so wet that your next-to-skin layers have to be changed each morning and dried out? Do you just wake up and jump into another change of base layers?
Do you get wet enough that you have to dry off with something? Or do you kind of just stay in a perpetual state of moisture? Thanks for all the great info and responses!
I prefer VBL clothing so that I can sleep with all of my clothes on and not have to change in the morning. I saw some people are doing a work-out in a gym wearing a weight loss suit.
Is it a good VBL suit for a wilderness? A very intersting article. In some ways what is old is new again. The beauty of the Synergy Works system is that everything was integrated together.
The pit zips on the shell matched up with the pit zips on the pile jacket which matched up with the pit zips on the vapor barrier shirt.
In many ways this was ahead of its time. In terms of developing a personal vbl system, would something like lighter rain gear work for a vbl jacket and pants?
Something like Marmot precip comes to mind. Relatively cheap and an easy way to try out a system to determine if it suits a person.
Have you posted a gear list from your Superior Hiking Trail winter trip? Since I carry waterproof clothing e. Unfortunately, it does not work this way.
Thank you Andrew. I wanted something comfortable I could use for ten days, as a first layer.
I have a few questions. My application for this this sort of system would be multi day high output alpine climbing in cold and snowy conditions.
Anyway, if i was to include a full VBL suit in my setup, would that mean that i could overlook the use of a fleece and instead opt for a lightweight down jacket as my active insulation layer?
As such, i seldom wear any insulation on my legs while moving apart from some midweight base layer bottoms.
I could imagine a system where i do all my high output activities wearing only a base layer and a breathable shell layer on my legs.
As soon as i stop and find the need to put on my down pants or go into my sleeping bag, i could throw on a pair of rain pants as a VPL.
This could potentially avoid all the mobility issues that come with a lack of stretchy VPL fabrics. I would appreciate your feedback on the subject.
Yes, if you have a VBL top, the breathability of the fleece is irrelevant, and a low-profile insulated piece would give you more warmth for the weight.
I relate to this. Otherwise, leggings and lightweight shell pants have been adequate. To make VBL pants from a pair of shell pants, coat the interior with a PU-based coating, which will eliminate all breathability.
I found your use of a PU coating on the inside of shell pants very clever. The only reasoning behind using breathable soft-shell pants and a separate VBL pant is that i tend to sweat profusely in my pelvic area and often run into chafing and maceration issues.
As such, i will need to do some testing this coming winter with a pair of non breathable rain pants. One more thing.
Where is a good source for a PU-based coating like the one you describe? I have a training jacket from Mountain Hardware which weighs only 3 oz yet is non waterproof.
Im thinking it could make a perfect ultralight VBL top if i were to add such a coating to the inside of the fabric. Many thanks.
Why coat the interior of the pants instead of the exterior? Thank you so much for this blog post and your support. I learned a lot on this page and want to thank you for that.
I am writing you because I have a trekking honeymoon adventure scheduled this July in Iceland, and I care to be safe, comfortable and as prepared as is possible.
If you would please continue to be generous with your time and let me know if I learned as much here as I hope:.
Please let me know if any of this appears incoherent or naive. Thank you in advance for your time and attention! Eliminate the Gore-Tex bivies.
They will trap as much moisture inside your sleeping bag as they will protect you from. The MSR Dragontail is too much. A double-wall tent designed for 3-season conditions would be a better choice: a few pounds lighter, and the inner tent will protect you from condensation that collects on the inside of the rain fly.
Big Agnes, Sierra Designs, and several other brands offer tents with similar features at similar weights and costs.
I appreciate the time it took to respond. Regarding the set-up you describe as overkill and it may totally be , I intended to use that for degree Fahrenheit weather either near or atop a glacier.
Historical averages for July: Rekyavik — 47 to 55 F; record low, 34 Akureyri — 45 to 58; record low, 34 F. Normally you can assume 3 degrees per 1, vertical feet of vertical change.
I hiked your entire route in , and afterwards traversed the entire island east to west. Maybe I missed it, but I believe I read somewhere that once you saturate the microclimate inside your VBL insensible perspiration through your skin direct evaporation stops.
For sleeping when you are not generating heat that means the moisture level should reach a state of stasis rather than continuing to get wetter.
It also means less moisture loss, though you still lose a lot through respiration. I want to go snowshoeing in Minnesota ideally for about a week before heading to town.
What kind of shell do you use with VBL clothing? Should I stick with the semi-breathable Gortex shell I have, or should I get a shell that also passes no water vapor?
Would shell layers change if it was warmer and more humid, say just above freezing during the day with sleet? In really cold weather, however, you can get away with more of a windshirt because the snow is so dry.
Thank you. In terms of performance, no. Personally, I would use an older windshirt that has had its DWR scratched off; and a coating of PU would probably stick better on the untreated inside than the treated outside.
Thanks for the replies. Unless for some reason the coating stuck to one garment better than another? But I guess you could test a small area of the wind jacket and see if the coating seems to be working?
What do you think about using light and semi-tight rain-wear as a VBL? BTW, I have used oven bags in the past while skiing for my feet and …it works!
Modern rain wear is normally made of waterproof-breathable fabric. Even though the breathability is limited, it is breathable, and thus will not function like a VBL.
Fred: unless, of course, you get some totally non-breathable rain gear, which you can probably find and which might be inexpensive.
VBs with fuzzystuff lining. This has worked great for me. I think it has worked a bit better than my previous VBs where I used a very thin Longjohn layer of polyester or polypro against my skin, I think it is even more comfy.
Interesting article and thanks for the read! How do you manage the moisture from your breath when you are sleeping? Sorry for a little off topic but I soaked my sleeping bag last night in C weather feet and head area and came here looking for moisture management skills!
Regards, Kin. Respiration is a tough one. At one point I contemplated some type of breathing mask that would expel the moisture away from my gear, but never went through with it.
Overall, I think the amount of moisture is trivial, and it tends to frost up on the exterior of your parka and sleeping bag, making it easy to wipe off.
For feet, VB socks. For breath, much tougher, what has worked well for me so far is something known as a frost bib.
I usually am in a hammock under a tarp, with a nylon ridge line above me. From this hangs a piece of fleece with a head hole put your head through the hole, then the fleece hangs loosely between you chin and the ridge line.
Or, I have skipped the head hole and just more or less tucked it somewhere around my neck. The fleece frost bib was pretty soaked.
Obviously you would have to rig something for this to hang from in a tent, but the idea is simple. Just have a piece of fleece hanging somewhere around chin level, drappe over or tucked into the neck area of your bag or quilt.
Vibram has recently released an insulated ascent model. I would then pair these with Kahtoola KTS flexible crampons, and voila — a lightweight mountaineering solution for summer climbs.
Thanks in advance for your advice. A VBL lock with 5-finger design sounds extremely impractical.
Hard to believe that something from La Sportiva, Scarpa, Addidas, etc. It makes perfect sense that the suit would be better than the VBL bag.
The synthetic quilt option is not a sustainable solution to moisture build-up in winter conditions. It works for a few days, but it will fail long-term.
Coincidently I have the green versalite and red hotsac. The feet area in the versalite still picks up some moisture with the hotsac as a liner.
A true vbl is needed for extended winter camping. Which products do you recommend for the suit? You might check out some of the cottage companies, some of whom are making rain gear out of sil-nylon.
Theoretically wouldnt a full neoprene suit work? Stretchy, waterproof, and many have a fleece or light liner already.
Of course it would probably be heavy as all hell but aleast youd also get some insulation out of it. Theres a few 0.
If you were wearing it all day and all night though would the extra weight really make that much of a difference? So any moisture that gets into the material would probably stay in it.
Seems like there must be some sort of similar material that could be used. Maybe a custom made even thinner neoprene suit? Even 0. Maybe your active layer could be sized up thinking like a baggy nano air jacket and pants that you could throw over your puffy also when stopped.
Well there are a lot of different ways to get it done. VB shirt SWL. If I have a thin LJ top with me anyway probably do , that can be one more layer to go over the VB shirt for extra insulation, assuming it is large enough.
Or added down below to my hammock insulation. And I find it very comfy and low odor. What it lacks is vent options such as pit zips so hiking can really require a lot of VB skill for sure.
I do have their socks and gloves, and they work just fine also. They originally rated it at 20F, but a lot of folks said that was really optimistic, and I noticed their newer models at the same weight and size were rated at 40F, so who knows.
I always thought of it as a 30F TQ for me. And a fleece jacket and a thin layer over the VB shirt. Also wool socks and PG booties over the VB socks.
After a few hours, I added a torso length piece of Walmart blue CCF pad sit pad that I always have with me under my legs, to deal with a slight chill under my calves, but mainly to deal with an uncomfortable calf ridge that had developed- pad solved both issues.
No condensation! There was no other condensation inside the sock. No weight added to any of the insulation from moisture.
I was so warm I know I could have gone another 5 or 10 degrees or maybe more. A lot of folks complain of cold feet- as well as cold butt and back- in a hammock, even when temps are only in the 20s or 30s.
But my feet were over heating. I felt like they were sweating. I thought about removing either the booties or wool socks, but in the end I just let it go.
But, though I was warm enough, I was never this warm, even though I wore much thicker layers. Part of the problem was a lot of breath condensation on my Golite TQ near the neck area.
But I had never gone lower than 14F using my HHSS, and always had more added insulation below the hammock, and was never this warm.
I credit part of this success with the HHSS over cover adding warmth on top, and also the frost bib catching a lot of the condensation.
However, considering how warm I was- top, back, butt, and feet- at my lowest ever temp in a hammock, I have to think that the SWL VB clothing was a big, big help.
In both warmth and dryness. I was also very comfy with no sensation of damp inside the VB, except for my over heating feet. As I understand the unlined versions have about the same insulation as 2mm neoprene.
I have no interest in promoting this fabric — I just thought it might provide a solution based on my limited knowledge about and experience with the stuff.
I also have some Aquatherm wader socks. I found them to be remarkable in my boots. I use RBH liners. So, what about the rest of the body?
I recently tried my first ultra race. I made it 20 miles and quit. Temp at my end time was 8 below. I was soaking wet.
And I generally do sweat a lot and easily. Everyone says to dress lightly to allow the sweat to evaporate.
Not much luck at those temps and humidity. I was soaked. Baselayer, second wool layer, puffy vest, and then a breathable jacket.
I feel like I would be better off containing the sweat. Maybe a light baselayer, followed by a full vapor barrier for upper and lower body.
Do they make a vapor barrier for the torso and legs that would work for me? Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give.
Matt, 18 below Fahrenheit or Centigrade? Either way, wow, that is a cold bike ride! And that point being: no matter how breathable, with enough activity I am going to sweat, even when it is very cold.
Especially when carrying a pack. Where we hope it keeps on going through our breathable layers into the air, but where it sometimes hits a cold spot and condenses into liquid.
Your example for all of that- even at 18 below — is a great teaching point. So, for me the question became long ago: which is worse?
Feeling soaked inside a VB as it contains the liquid I am going to produce anyway? Assuming I overheat and produce sweat, which is now even much easier to do with the VB?
Or to allow that sweat to soak- or at least dampen- my insulation? If the most important goal is to avoid hypothermia, the answer for me is obvious.
VBs add so much warmth that I find it extremely tricky to even walk during this cold snap single digits in the south without sweating.
I have been trying to learn the art of ventilating at first sensation of moisture, but it is tricky.
But, regardless, I was never cold and though my skin was wet, my insulation was bone dry. When at full output in temps of 10 below, I bet you could get away with just three layers: a very light base, a VBL layer, and then perhaps a fleece or very light insulation.
Sorry, I wondered if I should clarify that. Temp was 18 below Fahrenheit. I also rode on Christmas morning. Actual temp was 18 below, and wind chills were at 45 below.
Same kind of thing with sweating, being wet and cold. All of the info in this discussion fits right into my theory of vapor control.
A long time ago I used to be a carpenter. Same thing in building houses. And it will move as the temps change inside and out.
And wherever that dewpoint is, that is where moisture will condense and turn to liquid. In warm climates, the vapor barrier is put on the outside of the house underneath the siding.
Same thing. It seems only logical to me that the same criteria would apply to us and our warm bodies working in cold environments.
And I agree, that I could get away with fewer and lighter layers if I keep the sweat contained, using the vapor barrier not only as a moisture containment system, but also as a windblock.
So, my biggest pursuit is to find a good upper body vapor barrier. So, thanks so much for all the help. Any future advice for where to purchase items would be greatly appreciate.
Thank so much. Vapor Barrier is the way to go. The RBH stuff will be much nicer, more multi-use due to better looks, and I would like some.
But I can tell you that this much less expensive stuff, worn underneath anyway where it can not be seen, will totally get the job done.
No buttons though, just zipper and Velcro. The gloves are not so strange, they are simply a white material. The base model no zips does weigh almost twice as much though, probably because of the extra outer layer that improves the looks.
But maybe also adds a bit of insulation? But weight maybe not a factor for a biker? But, the cost for the shirt is 3.
Though I would like to have the RBH, for my purposes the SWL has worked like a charm, increasing warmth far more than any 8 oz XL insulated top could and keeping my jackets and quilts bone dry to boot.
For me it is similar to trying to choose between a Toyota and a Mercedes, except at least the Toyota also looks OK.
Have you tried wearing the Warmlite pants under anything? I would prefer a thin wool baselayer, then the vapor barrier, then my winter biking pants, which in this care, are made by 45nrth.
Just wondering how it works to wear the Warmlite pants underneath stuff. And do you typically wear the Warmlite with a layer underneath, or directly next to the skin?
He won the mile race. You can read his account of just what a struggle it was with the cold and humidity. Matt, I do not have the pants, only the shirt, gloves and socks.
Though I nearly ordered the pants the other day and might soon do so. Inside layer is something called fuzzy stuff, a very thin layer that I have found to be very comfortable against my bare skin, and dries rapidly when the shirt is removed.
I could of course wear a thin wool layer between skin and SWL VB shirt, but i see no need to personally. I have sat around in my house with the shirt on and against my skin- at about 70F- for a couple of hours and did not feel uncomfortable or damp.
I have also slept all night in the shirt, gloves and socks at 6F in a hammock and adequate insulation and was not only totally warm, but felt dry accept for my feet.
But I did not want to come out of the quilt and deal with that, so I just slept with wet- but very warm- feet.
When I came out of the VB socks next morning, they were damp, but not as wet as they felt, and dried quickly.
On that night, I used my waterproof breathable rain pants as a faux VB, which people claim will work. In fact, SWL swears it will work. Either my legs do not put out much vapor, or it worked adequately, as all my insulation was bone dry.
I even weighed everything and there was no measurable weight gain or loft loss as would be expected from condensation.
Matt, in case in my rambling i did not answer your main question: with these SWL VBs, I wear these right against my skin, I find it totally comfortable, and see no reason to wear anything else against my skin.
As always on this site; I found a lot of practical discussion and ideas based on experience. I think VB is a difficult subject because there are too many variables such as individual physiological and psychological differences, temperature, humidity, layer combinations, time exposed, calories burned, and tolerance for feeling wet.
A short hike is different than a long one. Being in a remote wilderness where rescue is unlikely makes moisture control vigilance so much more important.
I just wrote a whole reply, and it disappeared. Both are great. My wool gloves and boots both stay dry and functional.
And I stay warmer than I ever used to. For me, I think Vapor Barrier is the way to go. All of my friends say to dress light and vent the sweat.
I far exceed in sweat production what the environment is able to ventilate off of me, especially below zero.
If I dressed light enough to rid myself of it, I would freeze to death. So, being a gigantic sweat factory, I have no choice but to harness and utilize it.
But I to intend to by products for upper body first, and then lower body. RBH is certainly more appealing aesthetically and with some of the features they offer.
It could be worn as my outermost cycling jacket depending on conditions. But certainly the Warmlite is priced nicely and may function great underneath a warmer jacket.
When I get around to purchasing stuff, and trying it out, I will certainly post back here for everyone to read.
After reading this I just want to know that wheather VBL is good even at degree celsius or not? Because as far my understanding, VBL not allowing the moisture to pass through it will create problem at temperatures below or degree celsius.
As far as I know- and in my experience- the colder the better when it comes to VBs. Also, the evaporative cooling that takes place next to your skin is a major cooling factor, and becomes more critical at extreme cold temps.
Any day you keep these things from happening, by using a vb to keep all of this vapor or sweat close to your body and out of your insulation, is probably going to be a warmer day.
Also, have you used their VBL balaclava? If not, which brand have you chose to use? The overmitt lasted me many years, whereas the UL mitt wears out quickly.
Fascinating, thanks! So animal rights debate aside, strictly from a technical viewpoint: do fur garments act as their own vapor barrier? Are there arguably areas where fur delivers superior performance to both down and synthetic?
All very interesting. Having said that, I do know from testimonials some here that vapor barriers seem to work.
Perhaps they are just reducing convection. I have put a vapor barrier over my sleeping bag in mild conditions at altitude and immediately felt clammy.
Perhaps it is this disagreeable damp feeling that keeps the idea of VBL from being more popular. I very much cherish the idea of climbing into my warm dry sleeping bag in frigid conditions and the thought of being unpleasantly moist turns me off to the idea.
Great article! I have used them primarily in sleeping bags. Temps as low as F to and as high as F.
Typically with a base layer of merino wool as well. Yes, you wake up just a bit damp, but as soon as you get out of the sleeping bag, the cold dry air whisks that extra moisture away almost immediately.
You can put the rest of your regular clothing on without compromising it with moisture. I remember hearing about your epic trek across Northern Minnesota.
I think I was winter camping in the Boundary Waters around the time you were passing through. I wish we could have connected before that trip so I could have introduced you to the idea of VBLs sooner and saved you some suffering.
Hello, Very interesting. Maybe not easy to put on in a sleeping bag though. I happen to have spent a lot of time in wet suits. Here are some interesting, I think, facts.
Most people think that there is a layer of water between you and the wetsuit and you warm that layer and somehow that keeps you warm. You should limit the water between you and the suit as much as possible if you want to be as warm as possible.
I originally thought that the wet suit would keep you warm on the surface too. But we all found out that on wintery days with wind and rain or snow that the wet suit did little to protect us and we put big heavy jackets over the wet suit.
I think perhaps it was the water evaporating off the wet suit that caused the rapid cooling. On warm days before getting into the water a wet suit is a very uncomfortable, sweaty, terrible feeling.
Getting into even icy water was welcomed. I love that this article is getting lively comments and discussion — and responses from Mr.
Skurka — more than seven years after it was published! Maybe somebody else has information about new manufacturers carrying the products.
I agree, there is nothing new in either principle, theory or manufacture, that I know of. I remained a bit surprised at how difficult it is to get people to accept the basic science and potential benefits of this approach.
Under some circumstances, some rather large benefits. There is an out door forum I participate in, and I have brought up this concept more than a few times over the years.
Often to people who are having trouble keeping warm with the traditional breathable approach. As well as reporting a few of my great results, IOW known fact about what happened, not theory.
Although, a small number of those who try it do it wrong and of course end up with wet insulation. Even though there is a well respected authority there- he has written a book much referred to at that web site- who actually reports on the theory, on Andrew Skurka, and reports at least one time where VB use saved him from a cold, miserable night.
He was cold and getting colder in his breathable down gear, which was rated below the actual temps and had always served him well.
He remembered what he had posted on VB theory. Sense there was zero chance or rain, he decided to go for it, and wrapped his tarp around his body underneath his down quilt.
Warm and toasty the entire night, down quilt remains bone dry. It seems some are so convinced by a lifetime of conventional wisdom that the only rational approach is to maximize breathability, and any stop in the flow of moisture towards the outside can only result in being wet and cold.
It also seems that most folks- thoroughly educated in the benefits of breathable gear- simply do not understand the concept or science of VBs used at or very near the warm skin level.
Our body sweat liquid can evaporate to vapor- resulting in evaporative cooling- off of our skin and travel into our insulation, or sweat can be wicked into our insulation in liquid form as it would be with a sponge.
Which keeps our skin feeling pleasantly dry! That is the goal, and sometimes it works perfectly, although they are still dealing with evaporative cooling at the skin level.
Neither can get into the insulation. So, 1: no evaporative cooling and 2: dryer insulation. The longer and colder more sun free the trip, the drier the insulation compared to no VB.
If there are some warm, dry, sunny days and time for drying, probably not as big of an issue. What is difficult to understand about that?
I agree that- if warmth and dry insulation can be maintained- breathable is more comfortable than VB. I believe you sweat about a liter per night while not exerting yourself.
So you may just not notice the sweat in the house but it is building. Of course exerting yourself will up your sweat production — all depends on your personal physiology.
You could then vent without compromising the insulation. But try putting a plastic sheet over your sleeping bag some night.
I did and I immediately felt clammy and moist inside the bag. So there is at least a reasonable amount significant amount I should say of moisture, sensitive or insensitive perspiration, is coming out of your body.
There may be too many unknown variables to put it all into some sort of equation or scientific algorithm, but the subjective reports here are sure interesting.
I have seen what can happen even without putting a plastic bag over my sleeping bag, if the dew point is reached within my bag!
But I am not at all. Jim, Valid points. The first time, decades ago, using Patagonia VB socks over some sort of liner sock- probably polypro socks- I remember becoming alarmed, realizing my feet felt wet, which probably meant I was about to be cold, and my insulation was about to absorb moisture and loose loft.
But, before I could fully panic, it dawned on me that my feet were quite warm. IOW, maybe this was working as expected.
I have felt unpleasantly clammy some other times, but sometimes that meant I was not cold and in fact warmer, so I sometimes am willing to put up with it.
But, I agree there is a good bit about the entire subject that is subjective. It would be easy enough to put it to the scientific test as far as warmth and loft retention, but I have not seen that.
So, that is very small numbers for a scientific study! Andrew, just to clarify this point- for extremely low temperatures like —30C with relatively low aerobic activity, VBL clothing would be effective for helping with moisture management?
Such as your sleeping bad, or clothing. It would also reduce heat loss caused by evaporative cooling. Assuming the VB is very close to your skin.
EDIT: obviously, sweat does not have to condense back into liquid, ulike vapor. If it gets wicked into your insulation, it is already liquid.
Stopped experimenting with VBL sleeping bag liners because my winter trips are generally for a single night and the VBL makes wearing extra clothing inside bag problematic.
Having used VBLs in sleeping bags on perhaps a half-dozen single-night trips, I gained the impression that they added noticeable warmth in weather between 15F and zero, but offered a nearly imperceptible advantage if any on nights that were merely cool.
I am entirely uncertain as to how much benefit came from preserving loft, vs blocking evaporative heat loss. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment.
Notify me of followup comments via e-mail. You can also subscribe without commenting. What are vapor barrier liners?
Effects and Benefits The principal effect of a VBL is stopping the transmission of insensible and sensible perspiration, i.
This entrapment of moisture has three benefits: First, perspiration will not reach outer layers like a windshirt, insulated parka, or sleeping bag.
Conclusion Vapor barrier liners can be a pivotal and critical addition to wintertime and shoulder-season clothing and equipment systems, especially for those who are outdoors for long periods of time in frigid conditions.
Vapor Barrier Liner Slideshow: the technology put to use My first winter experience was during my 7,mile Sea-to-Sea hike, during which I snowshoed 1, miles through Michigan, Wisconsin, and northern Minnesota pictured in the first three months of Posted in Gear , Popular on December 29, Tags:.
Related Posts. GoLite's Demetri Coupounas talks company strategy, product design, and the Beatles. Michael on March 17, at am. Andrew Skurka on March 17, at am.
John on March 30, at pm. Andrew Skurka on March 31, at pm. For a top, you can use any shelter fabric, e. Hrvoje on April 28, at am.
Andrew Skurka on April 28, at am. Will check out the product you referenced. Thanks for the tip. Ed on November 17, at am.
Dave M. David on October 13, at pm. Steve on April 8, at am. Andrew Skurka on April 8, at am. John on March 22, at am.
A Warmlite bag would solve your sleeping bag issues. Evan Ravitz on April 14, at pm. James Jenden on May 1, at pm.
Thanks for being a gear nut. Makes me feel less weird. Andrew Skurka on May 1, at pm. Correspondence: Sleeping gear gypsy by trade on September 11, at pm.
Sotaro on October 3, at am. Mike Tunley on November 18, at pm. Andrew Skurka on November 18, at pm. Scott on March 18, at am.
Hi Mike, I am also a winter cyclist and commuter. Andrew Skurka on March 18, at pm. Jim Zajac on November 26, at pm.
Andrew Skurka on November 26, at pm. Ben on December 2, at am. Andrew Skurka on December 2, at am.
Jon Moran on March 5, at am. I think Ben twisted your statement around …. Andrew Skurka on March 5, at am.
Thanks for this article. Andrew Skurka on December 6, at pm. Monel on December 31, at am. VBL for a sleeping bag?
Your thoughts? Best regards, Monel. Andrew Skurka on December 31, at am. Clueless on December 31, at am. The mechanics are the same for both types of insulations: Your core temperature should be about Greg S on January 11, at pm.
Thanks, Greg. Andrew Skurka on January 11, at pm. Andrew Skurka on February 20, at pm. Duncan Coolidge on November 20, at pm. Andrew, It is interesting to read the critics of the vapor barrier approach who have never actually experienced the remarkable performance at sub zero temperatures.
Bobby Quick on February 4, at pm. Andrew, Great article and fabulous info! Bobby Quick Armchair Outdoors.
Greg Borchert on April 1, at am. Nichole on August 14, at pm. Paul French on October 26, at am. Andrew, What a tremendous article. Thanks very much again.
Andrew Skurka on October 31, at am. Best regards, Duncan. Andrew on October 31, at pm. Great article and very informative!
Andrew Skurka on October 31, at pm. AlexeyD on November 18, at pm. Hi Andrew, Thank you for this article.
I have us. Tim on November 19, at pm. Could a very thin 0. Kyle on November 28, at pm. I know this article is old but the information is timeless — hoping you may still reply… In the article you said you prefer a polyester-based base layer because it absorbs less moisture.
Andrew Skurka on November 29, at am. Kyle on November 29, at pm. Thanks again — very informative. Amelia on January 20, at pm. Hi Andrew, Thanks for all the great info.
Thanks for lending your helpful experience! Andrew Skurka on January 20, at pm. Greg on January 27, at am. Andrew Skurka on January 27, at pm.
Three things. Greg on January 28, at am. David Markun on May 7, at pm. Best regards, David, who has not experimented with body-wide VBL but likes neoprene socks.
Pliny on December 12, at pm. Delbo Gantzler on December 12, at pm. Gerald Dugan on February 1, at am. For the top: Insulating material will be fill down.
I enjoy and do a lot of cold weather solo not many people want to have this much fun hiking. I need to add vapor barrier socks between liner and insolation layers.
Very respectfully. Andrew Skurka on February 4, at am. Tim Julian on October 9, at pm. Bill Kline on January 30, at pm. Bill Fay on February 9, at pm.
Andrew, thanks so much for this really detailed and informative article. Like It. Zbynek on March 1, at pm.